From winning cases to winning audiences

From winning cases to winning audiences

Oct 6, 2021 09:36 AM
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Dominic Zijlstra
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From speaking in courtrooms to becoming one of the world's most recognized performative speakers, Robbie Crabtree uses knowledge from a wide array of disciplines to deliver impactful speeches
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From speaking in courtrooms to becoming one of the world's most recognized performative speakers, Robbie Crabtree uses knowledge from a wide array of disciplines to deliver impactful speeches
Connect with Rob at @RobbieCrab
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Hello and welcome to another episode in the super learning podcast. Today, I'm joined by Robbie Crabtree. Robbie is a former trial lawyer and now he's a coach for performative speaking. So welcome Robbie.
Thanks, Dominic. Really excited to be here.
Yeah, it's great. And maybe just for people to know, can you tell us a little bit more about what performative speaking is and who it can help.
Yeah, performance speaking is what I developed after years in a courtroom. So I tried 102 jury trials in the beginning of my career, everything from murder to capital murder, to child abuse cases. And that really led me to figuring out a lot of things when it came to speaking, storytelling, strategic communication, and I wanted to be able to take that on and unlock kind of what I learned in those super high stakes situations and take it to a broader audience.
Performance speaking as a way to, to do that because I was also coaching the national mock trial team at SMU law school for four years. And I wanted to be able to take what I was teaching them and what I had learned and put it to a greater audience. So I started working with tech founders, tech employees, especially engineers, salespeople, executives. So CEOs, CMOs, CTOs, all that sort of stuff. And then, also just you know, professionals, maybe that's a lawyer and accountant, a consultant who wanted to learn, how do I become a better speaker? How do I become a better storyteller? How do I kind of own these skills that we all know we need? But most people are never taught.
So they started to come to performance, speaking to learn what they need in order to advance their career, but also just to feel more comfortable and confident as a person when they walk into any room..
Right. Yeah. That sounds like a very essential skill. And especially nowadays where everybody has to kind of advertise themselves online, right.
sure. I mean, just look at this, like you're running a podcast. So like at the end of the day, anyone who's doing a podcast, anyone who's doing YouTube creation. Which funny enough, if you ask kids now it's like 75%, the number one answer of what kids want to be when they grow up, is a YouTuber and in order to be a YouTuber, guess what you've got to be able to do.
You got to be able to speak on camera. And so again, the skills just translate really probably across the border, which is the fun part for me.
Yeah, definitely. So maybe we can step back a bit and can you kind of tell me your learning journey? How did you become so proficient in this particular skill of speaking, delivering speeches through your work?
Yeah, I think this is one of those misconceptions. People think you're just born a great speaker and that simply isn't true. The truth is you develop the skill. Now, do you have some inherent ability? Sure. But when I was growing up, I had a stutter. I had a lisp. I did not like speaking. So for anybody who thinks, oh, well this was just easy for all of Robbie's life, you're wrong. This was really hard. I did not like speaking in front of people for a very long time and it wasn't really, until I got to high school that I just kind of, just overcame that. And it was like, you know what, I'm not going to let that hold me back. I'm just going to go for it. It was in high school where I started competing in extemporaneous speaking competitions and was qualifying for the state championship in those events and realize that things that I thought were really easy wasn't like a skill that everyone had.
And I'd kind of been working on that for a while over my time. And then when I went to law school, one of the things I noticed very quickly was being a trial lawyer is the best way to compete if you will, in terms of being a lawyer. And I played college baseball, so I love competition.
And that's what led me to going into mock trial, which is where my coaches really kind of taught me everything that I needed to know, mentored me throughout that process. And then when I became a trial lawyer, that was a long journey, honestly, and there was one case in particular that really changed everything because in my eighth jury trial, I lost and it was a case I should have won.
And my jury actually told the defendant at the time they walked out and said, we know you were guilty and you know, you were guilty. And I was just kind of floored at this because he just admitted that I should've won and yet I lost. And this is really what led me down this road of figuring out, like, what is it that makes a great speaker?
What is it that makes somebody compelling and inspire action? So over the course of the next seven years of my career, I just dove into everything I could get around speaking, storytelling, strategic communication, game theory, human psychology, like you name it, I was studying it because I wanted to know what does it take to be the best at this? How can I do it? And then how can I teach others to do so.
That's amazing. As you said, it's like a very almost multidisciplinary approach. Like you took knowledge from a lot of different areas. How did you manage to kind of synthesize that into, what has become the Robbie Crabtree approach to performative speaking.
You're really just trying to look at what are the best practices and all of those fields. How do they all kind of line up? Where are the connections? Where's the common threads and how can we then build using all that information? So I think for a lot of speakers, the problem is they don't have that holistic view of what makes a great speaker.
And it really is. It is all those pieces that I just named. You need to be able to understand, you can't just say the right words. You can't just say them the right way. You need to know persuasion principles from Cialdini. You need to know human psychology and the way that we store memories, you need to understand why musicality, what I call dynamic delivery is so important because it triggers a creative side of the brain.
And so it becomes stickier in the mind. Like you need to know all these pieces to understand why it works, and you understand why storytelling creates oxytocin and dopamine in your listener, and essentially how to structure that, all of these different pieces come into play. So really what I did is my job as both a speaker personally, but also as somebody teaching this stuff is to essentially curate all that knowledge, distill it down into the pieces that make the most sense and then put it all together. And the example I love to use for this is if we think of like Kanye west and the way that he develops music, go and listen to any of his music, he's building on top of other music.
It's always samples that he's using. It's always different ideas from multiple sources that he's bringing together and basically merging remixing, putting together in interesting and new ways. That's what I think my job is to take to other people, like you don't have 10 years to study this stuff like I did because you're a tech founder and you're running a company that's worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
My job is to tell you here's what you actually need. So you don't have to waste 10 years. That's kind of how I think about my role as performance speaking and the founder of this and teaching people is, I'm going to give you the best stuff and how those common threads all play out between these different disciplines that you need to understand.
Yeah, that's awesome. And I think one thing you've mentioned quite a few times, and also I remember that from when you were presenting in ODCC, which is when I first saw you is you've got to know what you want to say before you deliver a speech and you just mentioned as well when delivering a speech, you need to know principles about cognition, about how to make it sticky, basically. So you tell me a bit more about how you make your speech sticky and how you actually remember yourself, what to say?
Yeah, I mean, we could do you know a 10 hour long podcast on that topic. And still wouldn't even brushed the surface when it comes to those ideas. But in terms of how do you remember it?
You know, it depends on the person is the honest answer, some people need to write all out and need to be more memorized. Some people are better at what's called extemporaneous speaking, which is speaking without notes. So that means you're still prepared. But you don't need to memorize the full thing in order to understand, and you don't need notes to actually guide you.
So for instance I did a 45 minute speech the other day, and I had no notes, nothing was memorized. I basically written it out in blocks. So like, I just knew what each main block was. And then I was able to speak on each of those blocks in this period of time. And what you'll find is the longer you do this, the more you get this internal clock that kind of guides you.
So, because as a trial lawyer, I would have very tight time domains. I learned what 15 minutes felt, what 20 minutes felt like, what five minutes felt like. So like, I know when I'm speaking where I'm at in terms of that, that number. And so one of the pieces is for individuals who are speaking is some of it's just practice, some of it you need the reps right. Then in order to remember it though. So like I told you, I don't actually have to write it out and memorize. But I put blocks and I know that those blocks are so I'm structuring them in a way that is going to take the listener on a journey, right? We're going to have some sort of narrative flow.
Oftentimes that means I'm opening up a loop at the beginning, which is going to be my macro loop. And then I'm providing smaller pieces inside of that, that are kind of interchangeable. But when you think about it, it's normally what I'm calling a stacking and I'm leading to the most important thing by setting up the first thing, the second thing, and it leads into the third thing, which is the big one and then you're closing that macro loop at the end.
So that's a general basis of how I would think of structuring it. The reason we do this in order to make it sticky, going back to that point is if we open a loop, humans want resolution, and if we have something that's unresolved early on, we can keep them engaged for much longer, because they want to figure out what is that conclusion?
What's that finish. And so you've got to think about who does a really good job of capturing attention and making things stick. Right? So great movies, television shows, books, all this sort of stuff, where they have cliff hangers, right? They have multiple characters that you get invested in. They're telling stories.
So like, if we start thinking about these pieces, we start using them and then we create this musicality or this dynamic delivery on top of it. We're using, you know, almost musical notes. Like when I write something, oftentimes if I'm writing a big speech and I'm writing it out or I'm writing for somebody else, I will literally write musical notes over top of the words so that I know exactly what they should sound like and how to build different rhythms and cadences.
And where tonality should change, where volume changes shifts, and where big pauses are so I can really drive home that point.. Rhetorical question. So there's all these rhetorical devices and oratory skills that you bring into it to make it stickier. But again, that's just something that takes so long to really refine and develop and figure out what is your signature style that you can really gravitate towards and deliver time and time again.
Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of different principles involved there and you said it's personal. Like what works for you? But then you have to present it to an audience. Right. Which is kind of a lot of people. So what are some of the recurring principles that you have found to work for almost everybody in a way.
I mean again, the dynamic delivery is huge. Storytelling is critical. Like those two pieces always have to be there. The way that I think about setting up any talk I have is, I use what I call the performance speaking framework. And it's a five piece framework that is just like a macro framework for any speech, because I can have other frameworks that are embedded within, but on a macro level, this is the thing that guides me and those five steps are.
First, what's my goal. Second, what's the emotion I need to create to get to that goal. Third, what is my hook for the speech? Fourth, what is the theme? The main idea of my speech. It's going to be sticky and five, what is my dismount? If I can answer these questions ahead of time, I'm in a good spot. So the first two, what's my goal and what's my emotion I want to create. Those are really the strategy piece at the talk and then when we think of what's the hook, theme and dismount, those are really the tactical pieces of the talk to make them sticky in the moment. So like, if we think about the strategy piece is how we make it sticky.
Long-term the tactical piece or how we make it sticky when they're actually listening to the thing.
Right. So, one thing you mentioned there is dismount, can you elaborate a bit more on what that means and how to incorporate that?
Just like a gymnast when they finished their routine. They have to stick the landing and sticking the landing is a make or break moment for any gymnast when they are on the bars, everything would go perfectly. And when they swing off and they do whatever twist or flip, and then they land, if they fall or falter, it doesn't matter how good everything else was.
They just lost that event. Like they're not winning it versus if they stick that landing, don't move, come up and rise and raise their arms up. That's a sign of that was a successful routine. And they're going to essentially benefit from that. The same is true for a speaker. If everything goes great in the entire speech, and then you just finished with something super weak, or you finished with trailing off, or you finished with, so, or that's it.
Now, the last thing you've left in the memory of your listener is this person didn't know how to close it out. And if you don't know how to close out, that's going to be the lasting memory that that person has of your talk. So what we want to do is know what the dismount is before you ever get there. So for instance, the speech I was just telling you, I did, it was a 45 minute speech.
I had opened the loop at the beginning with a story. My finishing was closing that loop, resolving the story. And then essentially translating my experience in that situation, which was a very big moment ,into a big question for my audience. And I delivered that big question as the final moment and the way I delivered it was very dynamically in that delivery because I had like two words, pause, two words, pause, two words, question mark.
Let the silence hang at about five seconds after that, then I say, thank you so much. And I'm done. And so my dismount is that big question that sits with them, that they have to really go home with thinking, what is my answer to that? Like, yeah, this is the thing that I can do. So anyways, that's how I think about the dismount is, its understanding where you want to finish. So you can actually do it well.
Yeah. It sounds almost like that big end rule right of karma, like what you end with is what they're left with basically. And so you have this structure, which kind of keeps the suspense going but then I also noticed in your speeches you have, they're high energy throughout, like how do you keep it up? Especially when you're facing like a zoom call and just like a screen of faces, which is not very lively and that the audience might not have that same energy. So how do you keep it up?
You know, what's interesting, what's even tougher is I've been asked to do some talks where you're actually recording the talk and then they're watching it later on.
So like you're not even talking to people, you're literally just talking to yourself, which is even harder to get energy up. And I really don't actually understand why people are doing this to speakers, because I think you tend to get a lower quality product, but that's a whole separate issue, going to your point though.
How do you get that energy up? You know, some of it is you just have to realize the opportunity that you have, and you have to be able to self motivate and be disciplined in the way that you approach these things. And so every opportunity should be seen as again, an opportunity that you can do something interesting with.
So for me, when I'm looking at a camera and nobody's on the other side, I'm picturing an audience I'm speaking to, when it's a zoom screen, most of the time, I'm going to ask people on that zoom screen to come on camera, just so I can see their faces, just because that's helpful. They can see mine. I can see theirs.
There's just something different that happens when we can see each other's faces. So oftentimes I'm asking for that. And then I'm looking for one or two people that are engaged. So, if I can find those one or two people that are engaged, then I generally will latch on to them as the person I'm speaking to.
And I'm using them as feedback for what I'm saying. Is it connecting? Because if I'm getting that engaged person, I know I'm connecting with them. So even on the worst case, let's say my talk doesn't land with everybody else. There's a hundred people on the call, but I know one person is super engaged with it.
But at that point I would still consider that a win, because if I'm happy with the talk and it does something with them, inspires them to action.. I've been successful. So this is why I say every time I speak, every time I write, anytime I'm communicating, my goal is to make two people happy. First myself. I've always got to be happy with the product that I put out there.
The second one is just one more person, because if I am able to change one person, if I'm able to inspire action or change the way that they're thinking or considering a new idea, The ripple effects of that. I don't even know what they are. So at the end of the day, as a speaker, I'm always thinking one plus one, if I can do that, I've been successful.
Yeah. That's amazing. Inspiring others is such a great motivation. And even if it's just one person, so let's step it back a bit to how you learned all of this. So basically, you mentioned, you synthesize stuff from lots of different fields. So how did you choose what to learn? Because there's so much information out there and no doubt, some was relevant, some was not relevant. And did you have any process for guiding you towards actually what to learn about?
I mean, luckily I went to people who were better and smarter than I was at the time. So like, I was fortunate enough to realize I need to start learning from some of these people who are doing it really well as a trial lawyer. So I would just go and find the people that we're winning cases all the time. And juries were being super moved by them and they were trying the biggest, most serious cases. And so I would just go and learn from them.
And I was learning not just from one side I learned from prosecutors, I learned from defense attorneys and I just was able to figure out who are the best of the best and then, in doing that, they would see me around enough and I'd be willing to talk to them and just be like, Hey, how did you kind of learn this?
What would you suggest I go and study and they would have recommendations. And so I would go and do those things and then I'd practice them and I'd put them into place. And I would see what works, what doesn't work and things that worked on keeping things that didn't work out, either revise or throw away.
And so you just start to build kind of these skills because you're going to people who know it better than you, then you're also doing your own research. And you're going down rabbit holes. And the truth is, it just takes a lot of time. Like in a lot of ways, there's no foolproof method, sometimes you just have to be willing to invest and realize that not everything is going to pay off. So you just go down rabbit hole after after rabbit hole of Ted talks, of psychology talk of, you know, it doesn't matter like storytelling, like why does it work? So for instance, TV and movies to figure out like, what are they doing so well, you're analyzing the way that they use music, the way that they use character development, how they name their characters, costume design, lighting, sound, all these different pieces.
And so essentially what you do is you train yourself to take advantage of what I call intentional consumption. And by intentional consumption, when we are consuming something, we're paying attention to why it works or why it doesn't work. This can be reality television. This can be anime. This can be books you read, it doesn't matter. So when we start picking up on these things, we start to realize like, Hey, this is why it's working. Then you take notes on it and say like, I love the scene from Peaky blinders. I need to figure out why, what resonates with me. And so you're just putting a lot of this time in and figuring out once you find like these good inputs, you start digging in, you find the ones that are connected in some way.
So like adjacent or lateral, were then you're like going after those and learning more. So you come across somebody who's a great speaker on Joe Rogan's podcast for like Joe Rogan is a great podcast to write really great at asking questions. So you listen to some of his podcasts and maybe there's one, let's say Jocko, for instance.
On Joe Rogan and all of a sudden I'm listening to Jocko and now I'm studying, like, what is that mentality of a Navy seal that makes him successful and how does he speak? And I started studying not only his mindset, but also the way that he actually delivers a message. How is he using dynamics? What's he doing with his voice? What's his tonality.
Then you start figuring out what are the themes he's playing around with and what's his word choice and why is he doing this? And then you see people he's talking to who do this really well, all of a sudden you're like, you're just like going, like just layers, almost like Russian dolls where you just keep taking them out and you keep getting great inputs. So you can keep building the skill and understanding of how to actually do this.
Right? Yeah. You just got to put in a time and go down those rabbit holes and some of them there'll be rewarding eventually. I think one thing you mentioned over and over again is basically storytelling, right? It's like a great device to capture attention, but also to learn and teach others. So very often kind of what we actually have to say or teach is kind of dry or like corporate or I don't know, it might be hard to find a story that fits your message. Like how do you come up with the right story?
You know, there's always a, there's always a story to tell we've lived enough life to know there's a story. Whether that's a story you've lived personally, it's a story that you've watched. For instance, oftentimes I use stories from, from TV or movies. Like I love the story from the west wing about like a man falls into a hole and he's yelling out help.
And a priest walks by and the priest says, I'll say a prayer for you. The man is still stuck in the hole and the priest walks away and he keeps yelling out for help. And a doctor walks by and the doctor says, I'll, I'll throw a prescription down the hole to help you out. So the guy has a prescription now, but he's still stuck in the hole.
And finally, a friend walks by and here's his friend says, Hey, like, what are you doing down? And he says, I got stuck in this hole. Can you go get help to get me out of this hole? And all of a sudden, the friend jumps in the hole with him and the one who is in the hole originally, he says, what the hell are you doing now?
We're both stuck down here. And the friend. But I've been down here before, so I know the way out. That's not my story, but like I use it all the time because it's so valuable to reference so many points. I do this a ton with pop culture references and movies and TV, like, oh, that reminds me of this scene in the office.
Boom, boom, boom. That's a story now, in a way. So we can always be relating it. And we also have so many personal experiences, professional experiences. Right? If you ask me pretty much anything around speaking, I can give you a story from one of the people I've worked with or a story that I myself have gone through, or one of my students on the national mock trial team, it's virtually impossible for me not to have a story professionally, same thing I can, like I was talking to a friend the other night who actually was one of my former clients inside of performance speaking.
And she was telling me how there's a doctor she really admires. And one of the reasons, because when he is talking on any sort of podcast, any sort of interview. He is able to relate every single question to an actual story of when this has played out in his life as a doctor. That's what's so powerful. So when people come to me and say, there's no way to tell a story, I say you're wrong.
Like, there's always a way to tell a story. Sometimes it's a quick antidote. Sometimes it's very small. It doesn't have to be like the entire answer. You can weave them in. Now, sometimes you want a big story that actually delivers your entire point. And one of the things I love is I believe it was Bezos who said this.
And he said, if the story and the data, actually, I think he used the word. If the anecdote and the data don't line up, you have bad data and you need to figure out why the data is wrong. So, I mean, even that, like we're highlighting storytelling through telling a story about something that Bezos said that is literally him talking about storytelling.
So like you want to talk about getting super meta, right? There's just so many ways to do this. And I think if you start thinking through, right, this is why I tell people to make a story bank and a story bank is just taking stories out from your mind that you've lived professionally, personally, high school, college, third twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. You can break them down however you want, when you're at certain jobs, when you were in certain roles, when you were traveling, when you were out with friends, like whatever it is, you can break these down into categories. And by simply pulling out a lot of these stories, one, you'll start to realize how many stories you actually have access to.
And two, when we take them out and put them onto paper or whatever kind of system you want. I mean, you could video them, do whatever, just to store them. We start to realize that we have these, but the problem is it's hard for people to think of stories in the moment, unless they've done the work ahead of time to identify what stories they can actually tell.
So once we kind of do that process, its a lot easier for people then to start implementing stories and to start realizing how to weave them in through every answer.
Yeah. I love that idea of a a story bank, how'd you go about setting it up like, anytime you come across a story, do you enter it somewhere? Or how could I go about creating a story bank?
I mean, you can do different ways, like notions a pretty easy one where you can just basically create different categories, right? So you could do like work stories, personal stories, travel stories, and then you essentially can break it down by decade, by year.
However is easiest. And you don't have to write out the full story. The truth is you're just like putting like a little reminder of something that happened. So I was in Venice recently and all of a sudden, a bunch of celebrities walked by where I was seated at the bar, just hanging out. And it's because the Dolce and Gabbana show was there.
So like, that was a very quick, like, make a note of this, right? The first time I surfed in Maui make a note of this, that's an easy one. The first, how I got my job as a Dallas prosecutor, like that's a story, boom. All my trials stories, you just start putting them in.. And the way that I actually tell people to think about this a little bit is Dave Chappelle has a line in one of his comedy bits about how he will write the punchline.
Like he'll come up with a punchline and he'll write it out, put it on a piece of paper and then put it in a fishbowl and wait until he can like figure out a way to essentially tell a story or tell the setup to actually get to that punchline. And that's what we should be doing as storytellers as well is when we realize, Hey, that was kind of an interesting thing.
I don't know exactly how I'm gonna use it yet, but like let's just let's store it. Let's keep it to make sure we don't lose it. There's a lot of stories that you'll have that you're like, I don't know exactly how to use it yet, but it's going to make for a great story. Like for instance, my car just got towed for an expired registration.
I've been dealing with the California DMV, but also having to deal with Texas because like California won't help me, but because I'm not a California resident, I'm a Texas resident. It's been. And so like, I quickly just like put this as, this is a story to tell, I don't know when it's going to come up and be useful, but like, I know it's there.
So I'm going to have that. And once you start practicing this idea of pulling them out and writing them down and just storing them, it becomes way easier to pull those out later on. So that's why I tell anyone I work with in any podcast I go on or any sort of like public kind of appearance, it's always build a story bank. You will become a better storyteller just because you know what stories you have..
Yeah, that's a great tip. I asked, you pull like two or three stories out of thin air. It seems so it definitely works. What was the biggest challenge and how did you overcome that? Like, was it this trial, as you mentioned before it was earlier or something.
I mean, the biggest challenge in all honesty is that transition from being a trial lawyer, into working with people outside of that world, because obviously people respect trial lawyers, and there's a lot of admiration that comes with that job.
But you still have to convince them that you can speak the language that they live in. So. People who work in the tech industry, I've got to understand tech terms. I've got to be able to speak that language, connect with them. And that was definitely a big challenge. But again, it just goes back to this idea of rapid learning, of being willing to dive in and figure out what do I need to know in order to connect?
Because one of the things that I do is I work with people across so many industries in the tech space, right? It can be crypto NFTs, property tech health tech. It can be social media platforms, streaming platforms, like all these pieces come at me and I've got to be dealing with them. I've been asked to talk about space tech before.
I don't know a single thing about space. People were asking me questions about terraforming and all sorts of things. I'm like, I have no idea about any of this, but what you do is really rapid learning. You have to be willing to just kind of step in and say like, I can figure that. So for me, the biggest challenge was just throwing myself into that and learning as quickly as possible so that I could actually speak intelligently on these ideas and say, Hey, this is what worked for me as a trial lawyer.
These are the principles that work across the board as a speaker to persuade people, to move them, to connect with them. But now here's how you actually do it with the language that you need to be speaking. So that was like that big, how do I connect that bridge and walk over it? So people can say, yeah, Robbie not only understands the principles, but he also understands my world and my language and how to connect the two so we can be most successful.
Right? Yeah. I mean, you kind of mentioned, you have to learn a lot of new things in a short time, and then we talked a lot about tech as well. So do you actually think there's any tech tools or apps or whatever that can help learning can help with storytelling can help deliver better speeches or do you just rely on pure brain power?
I don't know that there's any, I mean, there's AI stuff, but the truth is, I don't think that there's a formula for speaking. I think that there are frameworks and there are principles you can use. But the beauty of speaking is so much of it is playing around with it. I mean, like we have the hero's journey when it comes to.
The storytelling and don't get me wrong. It's a very valuable frame of reference. I think it's overly complicated for most speakers. I don't think most people understand how to use it effectively. And so they try to do it and then they end up doing it really poorly. So there are certainly guides that you can use to help you.
There are programs you can help to become like a better speaker to essentially deal with some of the pacing issues and filler words and things like that. So apps like ORAI, which is O R A I, poise, P O I S E or maybe it's poised with a D one of those. They both are able to track your language and give you feedback on how you're doing.
Those can be helpful for like a lot of people who are more beginner to intermediate, but for the people that I'm generally working with, it's generally people who are pretty high level speakers, right. CEO's, tech founders, running companies as an entrepreneur, they're doing pretty big things.
They're not at the stage where they need to figure out how to speak slower and remove ums and ahs and likes and those sorts of things. They're looking for a super high leverage. Like how do I go from being 90% to 98%? How do I go from being 98% to 99%? And that's kind of a different take. So I don't think there's anything out there that teaches you to that level, but I think there's stuff that can teach you the first 80% of the way there, or at least help you. So you're doing it in a cost-effective way now, again, I don't know if there's any great story telling help. I don't know that there's any great structure help. I don't know that there's anything like that, but there are those two apps I've talked about that will help you just to what I say sound like a good speaker, because there's a difference.
You basically learn how to sound like a good speaker. Then you learn to be a good speaker and then you learn how to sound like a great speaker and actually be a great speaker. There's like a process that you go through there.
Yeah. And I guess a very often is like the more advanced you get the less tools you need to, to assist you, right.
Less tools and then also you just need people who really know what they're talking about, right? This is where you have to start going to experts in order to get those benefits is the same reason why I go to experts in other.
To help me. Right? Like I'm not the world's best copywriter. I've gotten myself 80, 85% of the way there, but then you go and you get help from people who actually understand this right there. We have to identify what our strengths are. And then when you do that, you either have two ways to improve. You have two levers that you can use time and money, right.
You either spend a lot, like you spend a lot of time to do it and you don't spend money or you decrease the time. So it's done faster, but you're spending a lot more money to get that. And so that's always kind of what you're playing with. Now. The other piece is on some of these skills. If you're only using time, you won't improve just because if you get into bad habits, right.
You're just going to be doing things incorrectly. Like it doesn't matter if I take 5,000 shots every single day as a basketball player. If my form is horrendous and I miss 5,000 shots, that's not valuable time. If I take 5,000 shots with a coach who tells me, Hey, make this change. And now I'm hitting 2,500.
That's a whole different ball game and now I'm exponentially better because I hit 2,500 makes instead of 5,000 misses. Yeah. That makes a lot of times it always comes, comes back to, as you said, getting, identifying the best people and then getting in touch with them. Yeah. I really liked that idea. Yeah.
So I think we've discussed, discussed a lot of things about speaking about learning So I would like to ask you, who do you think I should interview next on this podcast?
You know, one person I just think is super interesting and great thinker is just a Michelob and he is the former speech writer for general Maddis general Patraeus and secretary Panetta, and also has helped with Jack butchers courses has helped with Erik Jorgensen's courses, I believe. And just as a and also runs his own.
Around how to be a creator in this new economy, just brilliant thinker, great writer, and super, super fun to talk to. So I'm a huge Justin McCullough fan. Okay, awesome. Yeah. I'll get in touch with him. And I'm a big fan of DEC Butler as well. It's kind of it's kind of trying to do a similar thing to deliver a very powerful message, but using a completely different medium.
Yup. Yeah. Jack does it with visual design and I try to deal with the spoken. Yeah, that's awesome. All right. Thank you, Robbie. And if people want to find out more about you or getting in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do it? Yeah, they should follow me on social media and reach out to me there.
That's where I'm most responsive on Instagram. It's at the Robbie crab, R O B B I E C R a B on Twitter. It's at Robbie crab. And then on LinkedIn, it's at the Robbie crab again, if we're thinking of, of LinkedIn. So those three places. The anybody can read articles and things. I write on my website, which is Robbie and there are ways to contact me on there as well.
I do run a course and a program, a group coaching program, and also a live cohort. If you're interested in that it's called performance speaking and there's different options for those. You can reach out to me on Instagram or on Twitter to learn more and go through a program that around 150 200 people have gone through.
Tell them themselves become better speakers, storytellers, and communicators. Awesome. Yeah. The funk to speak. Of course, it's definitely still on my on my bucket list. So one day I'll turn up. Awesome. Sounds great, Dominic. All right. Thank you, Robbie. Thank you so much.

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