Building Memory Palaces

Building Memory Palaces

Aug 18, 2021 01:28 PM
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Dominic Zijlstra
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Memory athlete Brian Groat lets us in on the different memory techniques to harness the power of your brain.
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Memory athlete Brian Groat lets us in on the different memory techniques to harness the power of your brain.
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hello and welcome to another episode in this super learning professional podcast. Today, I'm joined by Brian Groat. Brian is a memory athlete from Canada, so welcome Brian.
Hey, I'm really happy to be here now.
Awesome, Brian. So I think a lot of the listeners will be really interested about what it means to be a member of that league, what it takes to be a member of athletes. So maybe you can just elaborate a bit more on that.
For sure. So a memory athlete is an individual who uses mnemonic techniques or memory techniques to rapidly and reliably memorize huge amounts of information. Now I say rapidly because you know, the better that you get, the faster you are, and a lot of these events are speed events.
But reliably is kind of the most interesting because I got into memory techniques because when you apply them, you can kind of decide what you will remember and when, and for how long, as opposed to conventional studying where you just repeat something again and again and hope that it sticks with the memory technique.
You can just decide to remember it once you know these techniques. But yeah, a memory athlete is an individual who competes to memorize decks of cards or lists of numbers or names and faces.
All right. So, so yeah, maybe you can talk about some of those techniques. So for example, if I want to memorize a deck of cards, I just say, what kind of techniques would you use? How would you do that in competitive situation?
For sure. In terms of memory techniques, the backbone of all of them is association specifically visual association. So, a lot of people are familiar with association techniques. So, you know, one, gun two, shoe, whatever these rhyming things. Now, how a competitive memorizer memorizes a ton of information is that in advance they prepare visual associations.
Now most competitors use what's called a person action object system and this allows us to memorize cards in groups of three. So basically every card you assign a person to it in action and an object to it. And then when you're going through a deck of cards, you'll take the person from the first card, the action from the second card and the object from the third card and then give you an image that you can use to remember those three cards. So for example, the six of diamonds, the ace of clubs and the Jack of hearts for me is Stephen Hawking, moonwalking with a wristwatch. So, you know, that's a very memorable image cause obviously Stephen Hawkins is in a wheelchair.
So I'd imagine him getting out of his wheelchair moonwalking and holding like a big old flavor flav type a watch. So what this does is that it converts these really abstract images like three cards into a very concrete image that's very easy to remember. And then I take that concrete image and I'll put it in a location like the door of my house.
And then the next set of three cards I'll put at my shoe rack and the next set of three cards I'll put at my kitchen sink and what this does is it allows me to put them in order. So now I know what the cards are and I know what order they go in. So all of these techniques are based on a visual association and then arranging these images along an ordered path.
So that if you want to do them again in the same order, you can just follow the path.
Right? Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. It's like a memory palace that you can walk through.
That's it that's exactly what it is. I called it the method of loci. Some people call it the memory palace.
It's something interesting you mentioned is you can also decide not only what what to remember but also for how long to remember it. So how do you do it? Like you go to your memory palace and like empty it and replace it with something new or how do you go about that? Because I imagine that's especially important in competitions right where you have to remember like a new series every time.
Yeah. So, one of the reasons why I stopped competing, one is that I was just no longer competitive, people got so good and we can touch on that in a bit. But the other one was just preparing all of the space that I needed got really hard. So it got to the point where I was reading architecture and interior design magazine. I'm not an architect, I'm not an interior designer but I had to read them just cause I needed thousands of rooms. Right. So I would just be going through and I'd just be like memorizing these magazines cause I needed more rooms. I like used all my friends house. I had used every bar and restaurant I went to, I used TV sets. I used video game maps. So I needed a lot of space, but you can kind of delete stuff. So the way to delete stuff is either you can just not visit that room in the memory palace, and eventually it'll fade and I can explain the rate at which it fades in a second.
The second thing you can do is just overwrite it. You know, I had a grocery list in my kitchen and then I overlay another grocery list on top of that one, I don't love that technique because I got a little bit of interference. So, I might put a carton of eggs next to my blender, and then the next grocery list, I might put a carton of milk next to the blender.
And then when I'm at the grocery store, I might have this like blended image or I'm like, I don't know, do I need eggs? Or was that last week? So that's the second way. And then the third way, which was my favorite and it's the most reliable, it's just destroying the image. So. Just go through your memory palace and just like blow up the spots.
Let's just like destroy the carton of eggs or get like a big cartoon eraser in your mind and like rub it out or open a portal like Dr. Strange and throw it into a black hole. Just like imagine destroying the image and that's the most reliable. And that's my favorite.
Now in terms of keeping the information, there's something that's called the Ebbinghaus Curve or the forgetting curve you're, familiar with this. It's what space repetition is based on those tools. So obviously, you know that 50% of what you learn, you forget right away, 50% of what's left you forget five minutes after, 50% of that you forget about an hour after, and then the curve continues.
So, freezing your memory palace, you would just follow the forgetting curve. You just forget it. I mean, you just review it the same way you would review an On-key deck. So when I'm omitting stuff to a memory palace, I might stop and then quickly go back and review everything. And then after a memorization session, I might go back and review everything again, and then I'd do it the next day.
And with this technique, if you're organized, you can kind of just choose to remember something forever, if you would like.
Nice. Yeah. That's that sounds really awesome. Even with a memory palace, as you say, things fade over time, but they fade more slowly than if you like learned by root memory. But to you still need some kind of space repetition to prevent it from failing. Is that right?
That's right. I think the big thing to realize is that with the memory palace, you can be more deliberate about your reviews, but you can also sort of remember what you need. You can kind of remember what you've forgotten.
So if you're studying normally, you don't know what you forget because you've forgotten it. But if you're using a memory palace and you're going through, and you're like this image here next to my bookshelf is a little bit. I'm going to refresh this image. So it makes it very easy to kind of like, remember what you forgot.
But a big thing that I want to mention as well, because a lot of people think that if they build a memory palace, they'll have a photographic memory. They'll remember everything all the time and that's not really true because one, you have to put in the effort to encode these images, but two, you also have remember to remember. And what I mean by that is encoding something in a memory palace is kind of like writing it down in a notebook, except the notebook is in your head. But sometimes you still have to go in there to find the thing. So that that's a good point as well, like every now and again, I'll have to look like, do I know anything about organic chemistry? Let me check.
Yeah. That's super interesting. And I imagine like, you mentioned did a lot of competition and other competitors using even crazier techniques, even more spaces. So yeah, maybe just, just tell me about that experience and what have been some of the most amazing things you witnessed at those competitions.
For sure.
So I got involved in the competition because I wanted to get what was called a GMM title or a Grandmaster of memory. So at the time to become a Grandmaster of memory, you needed to be able to memorize a thousand digit number in less than an hour, 10 decks of cards in less than an hour and a deck of cards in less than two minutes and that was like realistic for me. That was something that I could probably get. I never actually did it, but I was looking at my sort of skill growth and some of my performances. And I realized this is something that I could do in like a year or two but then the criteria change because of this wonderful book called Moonwalking with Einstein.
Maybe your listeners have heard of it. Josh fuller becomes the American memory champ under the tutelage of Ed Cook. So he got super popular, these competitive memory techniques and a bunch more people started competing. So the titling changed. So you have to achieve those three goals, but also perform at a certain of competent competitors. Right. And I looked at the incredible things that people were doing and I just couldn't do it. Like I saw people memorizing 2,600 digits in an hour. I saw people memorizing hundreds of binary digits where it's like zeros and ones. And I can't even like make my eyes work that fast.
Like just being able to see that like, 1 0 1 1 0 0 and telling that apart but yet people, our competitors are incredible and I suggest, I'll include links so that people can kind of see the current global rankings, but some of these people are incredible.
Yeah. So it sounds like a crazy kind of community like what I'm curious about, like at some point, You stopped competing, but as you mentioned, you're still using those techniques in real life and in your job. And maybe, can you tell a bit more about how it still helps you.
For sure. So my specialty events was an event called the tea party or at least that's what we call it here in Canada. And how that worked is that sometimes actors, but often just a judge would go up and they'd be like, hi, I'm Dom. My wife's name is Sarah and she drives a green Prius. Hi. Brian, my dog's name is Franklin and he's a Boston terrier.
Hi, my name is X. My so-and-so is Y. My fact is I Z. And then after, you know, 50, 60, a hundred of these people go across or these scenarios are red, the judge would ask us a question, like what kind of car or what's the name of the person's partner who drives a green Prius. And I would say Dom and after like traverse those relationships, like Prius is connected to Sarah is connected to Dom.
I don't know your partner's name if they have one, if it's not Sarah, I'm sorry if I pissed someone off. But so you'd map those and that was my specialty. And obviously I use that every day. If I'm selling something, if I'm trying to build rapport with somebody, I'll leverage this all the time.
I I'll memorize almost everything anybody tells me about themselves and it's incredible for building rapport. Would you like to know how that technique works?
Yes, please. I think a lot of people would be very interested.
Okay. Absolutely. So the two cornerstones are association, ideally visual association and having a place to put it in. So what's really nice is that everybody has a place for me to anchor their information because everybody has a body. So initially I was storing things in this huge imagined memory palace, but then I started just anchoring the stuff to the people. I looked at the first thing that they tell me about themselves I put on top of their head. The second thing they tell me, I hang on their ears, like year ends. They tell me something else. I put it like a nose ring around their nose. So that way, whenever I see anybody, I can just glance over them and it's like, I'm reading my file. Wow. So then if somebody has, you know, a partner, a husband, a wife, something like that, you know, that might be on the top of their head cause you know, that's the most important thing for many of them, right? If you're trying to be friendly with somebody, ask how their partner's doing, so if they that, I'll put it right on top of their head. And then, what I can do is sort of like click into that and open it up. So if I see your partner on top of your head, I can kind of zoom in on them and then on them. I also have all of my anchors, so I can go through.
Right. That's super cool. So yeah, I imagined like a lot of people would like to get started and apply those techniques. Like I think both professionally and maybe even with like acquaintances, friends, et cetera. So if I like knew and didn't know anything about memory palaces, visualization, et cetera. And I just wanted this single technique about persons, which I think is really useful in real life. And you say, how would you advise to proceed maybe step by step, build that skill.
For sure. So the easiest way to remember things about people, it's you just repeat it and say it a lot.
Hey, you know what, I really don't actually know a ton about you, so really great. Do you have a partner? Do you have a spouse? Anything?
Yeah. She's actually called Lucia instead of Sarah.
Okay, cool. What does Lucia do?
She works in international sales.
Oh, cool. Awesome. So Lucia works in international sales. So just like that, just repeat it right away. So like I said, 50% of what you learn, you forget immediately. So I'm just like refreshing to make sure I got it right. And it also allows me to make sure that I heard you correctly, because if I said it back to you and I didn't hear you, right, you'll correct me.
Now Lucia for me, and everybody's images are going to be different. I imagine a character named Lucille from arrested development. I'm not sure if arrested development, where you are. It was like a very popular show.
I heard of the name, but I don't think I ever watched it.
It's a very popular show here in north America about five, six years back and I would just imagine, you know, James Bond at a sales conference, because, I kinda think like international spy mysterious and then sales, obviously sales. So when I look at you Dom, right on top of your head, I would see Lucia and then I would zoom in on her. And then, you know, like on an earring, I would imagine, James Bond trying to sell me something.
And then when I look at you all, Dom Lucia international sales, so the easiest way to develop these techniques is to just repeat what people say immediately imagine an image. And the thing is, that you can't do it wrong. People get hung up on imagining a perfect image or a clever image or image that'll stick.
Just imagine anything. It doesn't have to be correct. Like your partner's name is Lucia. I imagined Lucio cause like it's good enough. Whatever you think of first is good enough. And that's the thing, you can't do it wrong just when somebody tells you something repeat it, imagine an image and then anchor the image to something in your environment.
And then every time you see that person, just refresh the most important things. So you don't have to go through them, a head to toe because as you spend weeks or months or years with someone, you're going to get a bunch of information. You don't want to repeat all of it every time, but like hit the highest.
How's Lucia doing? Oh, we got married. Okay, cool. I'll update that image and then just repeat it because again, remember the forgetting curve, right? You'll gradually forget things unless you repeat them and this is kind of a nice little two in one, because while you're doing your review and you're updating your information, you're also incredibly charismatic to whoever you're talking to.
Because whoever you're talking to, it's like, Whoa. They remember my kid's name and they're asking about them. All right. So meanwhile, you're sitting here, you're like, they don't know that I'm secretly refreshing my memory palace. Meanwhile, they're over here thinking my God. I love Dom. He's so interested in my favorite person. Me, right?
Yeah, I really like that. So, I mean, I've tried building memory palaces in the past as well for things where I really need it, like in my case, the Chinese characters, for example, like I I've done that very successfully, but then other skills where memory palace would be convenient, but I don't revisit it very often though.
Cause it's not very critical or also it takes time to build a memory palace and often what's the most friction is actually very quickly coming up with that image and visualizing it, which often takes like half a minute, which is already too long in most practical situations. So how can you develop that speed of upgrading those images.
For sure. So for, for reference, it's pretty much accepted that you can't really get that speed down to like below six seconds. Maybe the science is updated but when I was very competitive, there was this consensus. It takes about six seconds to take in the information, read the information, converted into an image and then hold it next to a location long enough that it sticks.
We can't really get that down below six seconds which is why a lot of people, they try to encode more images or more information into one image. Right. So I mentioned that for cards, I use a person action object system. Some people use stuff like person action, adjective object. So that way, all of a sudden it's Stephen Hawking moonwalking with a fuzzy watch. Store four chunks of information in this one. So just right out of the gate, that's about as fast as you can go. But obviously 30 seconds, you can still improve a little bit. So I think that the biggest point of improvement that you'll have right out of the gate, is just being less hard on yourself, less judgemental with yourself.
Like I said, the image doesn't have to be perfect. Just whatever you imagine first. So I think a lot of people, they try to create a perfect image. So like what perfectly tonifies what I want to remember when instead you should just use whatever image comes first. And then the second one is that they'll take some time to try to make the image really crystalline, they'll try to imagine it like very clearly, and they won't go forward unless they can see it in their head. But the thing is, the image doesn't have to be that clear to be sticky. And like in some cases, just kind of ideating what the image is without actually visualizing it is often enough, like the image that I used for Lucia, I actually didn't picture that.
I'm just like, oh yeah, this is what I'll use. And it was good enough that it stuck. And now I can picture it, if I try. So that, that's the thing as well. Like you don't actually have to see it, because there's a ton of, have you heard of aphantasia? If I say that, do you know what that means? The inability to
imagine things. Yeah. Right, I think I did hear of that once.
I'm actually just going to fact check myself to make sure that's yeah, that's right. Sorry. Okay, cool. So the thing is like, there are people who have aphantasia, they're unable to imagine.
But they can still use mnemonic techniques and that tells us that while visualizing the image very vividly helps. It makes it sticky. It's not required. So if you want to get faster, I would suggest being less judgmental with yourself. Like, just be, this is a good enough image and let the image resolution be good enough. Just knowing what the image is and then move on. Cause you'll review it later and you'll refresh it and make it more crystallized as you review. But when you're creating it and when you're co-defying it, it doesn't need to be 10 80 P.
Right. And it's super cool. I think that's really going to help a lot of people building their memory palaces with a bit more confidence and speed.
And then another thing. Obviously, when we got in touch, you, you reached out because you saw like my app traverse.Link. So, do you think that can help people? I mean, first of all, like obviously learn stuff better in general, but also use some of those techniques that you talked about and how do you think that could work or do you have any other ideas about how technology and apps could help there.
For sure. I obviously remember the link that we're talking about, but do you want to explain the context to people who are listening because we had a bit of a DM back and forth that people line out, remember?
Yeah, sure. So, so basically the app which I developed and which a lot of people are using to study right now combines some of the efficient learning techniques. One of them is phased repetition. As Brian already pointed out, basically repeating things at optimal increasing intervals so you can remember them for life, basically over time, right. Repetitions. And then another one is mind-mapping, which is also making those connections, associations between different things and even in a visual way, which also connects with what you were talking about. So those, those are just some of the learning techniques that it uses.
And then basically the idea is you're taking notes in that format and you can even share them, publish them as courses so others can use them as well. And that basically helps you learn more efficiently.
So that's just some background and that's how Brian and I got in touch..
I saw the link and I immediately had to DM you. I'm like, we need to talk. And the answer is absolutely they help. What's great about technology in particular is that it allows you to know when you have to review something. And then when you're doing your review and you notice these blank spaces, it fills them in right away.
Oh, you need to remember this. So using a tool like yours is an incredible way to level up with these mnemonic techniques because while you can just do all of this. Just in your own head. Why would you, when you could use these tools and use the technology to kind of a level up your performance,
Right and so how would you advise people to go about that? Like, would they create a flashcard for each of the things that they put in their memory palace? And then just reveal that, or do you have other ideas about how to approach that.
It would depend on whether they were trying to remember something that's sequenced or not sequenced.
So, the memory palace is the most popular technique and it's the most powerful technique, but it's not always the most appropriate. If the information you're trying to remember is very sequential or very grouped. So very sequential. As in I go to my front door, then I go to my shoe shelf and then I go to my kitchen.
Or if it's very grouped in that, I might have different rooms for different subjects. So perfect example of when you'd use a memory palace is, you know, in order deck of cards, because the cards seem to be in an order, or if you're remembering, you know, math subjects and you want to have different rooms for different units.
But a lot of stuff like, Chinese characters, for example, the memory palace might not be the best fit because you don't remember Chinese characters in order. Right. You know, when you and I are having a conversation, we don't start at the top of the dictionary and read through to the bottom of the diction.
So for Chinese characters, you would focus more on the visual association and less on the anchoring it in a space. So you'd use more conventional flashcard type things where you'd review them with spaced repetition, where you're just showing the flashcards and then they review the flashcards.
Or you would have an image and then the corresponding data you want to memorize you associated with another one. So, for example, if I wanted to know that a child of a Guinea pig is called a Cavy, I would imagine a giant Guinea pig coming out of a cave. And then I would have that sort of association and it doesn't need to be in a memory palace because I don't need that information in any sort of order. I needed to go both ways and I might query it randomly. So the important thing when you're using these sort of space repetition tools is to focus more on the image and less on the sequence unless it's sequence specific information.
Right, yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And then I guess the main challenge when it's non sequential is you need to attach it to something else. Right. I mean, if in a Guinea pig case, it's, I guess it's obvious you attach it to that Guinea pig, but what if it's a piece of information that I might need at some point? Like say a particular Chinese character. What will be the trigger to find this visualization, which I saved, but which is not necessarily in a memory palace.
For sure. So, what's nice about Chinese characters and I can't read them. So I don't have deep expertise about this is that they are much more graphical than Western alphabets.
So, what that means is that, they have these stroke lines for Kanji. So one, try to see if you can turn that character into an image itself, much like a constellation. When you look up at constellations, they don't actually look like bowls or archers. Right. We only have a couple of dots and then we draw an image on top of it.
But see if that Chinese character has an image that you can think of. And then if you can associate that image with what the word means in dutch or English or any language. And, and that's how I would do it. And you can create associations between how the Chinese character looks, with the meaning of the English or Dutch word.
And you can also make a visual association with how the Chinese characters sounds. When you hear what it sounds like, break down the syllables into rhyming sounds and then come up with an image for what that sounds like. Like an example, what a word sounds like is obviously I don't have an image for Cavy, but I have an image for a cave and that's close enough.
Yeah, that makes sense and that's actually quite close to the methods, which I'm actually using for Chinese characters as well. And I'm also curious, have you used any of those techniques for maybe language learning in specific as well? And I know we talked about like, language accents at recognizing those before. So yeah, what's your experience in there
For sure. So, I used these memory techniques to teach myself Latin and Greek when I was in high school. And what was great about that is that if you know, Latin and Greek, you can kind of, sort of understand almost every European language. So when I'm listening to people speak Italian or Portuguese or Spanish, I know most of what they're saying because they're all romance languages.
In the same, if I'm reading, you know or not reading a medical tax, I don't read medical texts for fun, but you know, sometimes when, when my wife is watching Grey's anatomy, they'll say we need a nephrologist and I'll know that's a kidney doctor cause nephros obviously means kidneys. I'm laughing cause we, we talked about accents before we started recording. When I correctly placed you as a Dutch and spending time in Germany?
Around the time, time that I was competing in memory challenges, I was actually working as a telephone psychic.
Basically, it was like in early 2009, 2010, a website., I don't think it exists anymore, but basically you had like a VOIP number, like a voice over IP address. And they would be routing calls from all over the world for people to talk to psychics, like they ran like late night commercials.
So what I did just cause like I wanted to see if I could do it. Could I convince someone over the phone that I know things about them. So, what I did was, I went to the site called speech accent archive. And what speech accent archive does is it catalogs tens of thousands of accents. So you can like select a geographic region and it has a bunch of voice sample.
Like men, women, like two or three men, two or three women. And then each of the voice samples, it lists other languages that they speak or other places that they've spent more than say a year. And what I did is that I just memorized about 107,000 of these accents. And then from there I also memorize the largest major metropolitan area. And what this allowed me to do is that whenever anybody called I could answer the phone and I could say, and oh, you're calling from outside of Dublin. I'm like, oh my God, how'd you know that right. And for, for those accents, obviously, they're not sequential information.
So for that, I used spaced repetition. At the time I used On-key. If I were to do it today, I would probably use your app. But what I did is that a trust on one side of a flashcard, I had a voice sample and on the back I had the demographic information and then I should use space repetition to memorize all of these.
And it took me about nine months to memorize the accents. And it took me about three weeks to memorize the major metropolitan area data. And that was easy because it was like a visual association and I didn't have to train my ear. But I memorized stuff like the major metropolitan area, employment statistics in that area, the most common employers.
Because it would allow me to do stuff like if I knew your city and I knew your biological sex, which I did because I heard your voice. And I knew that in that region, you know, 35% of women worked in X and 28% of women work in Y and 17% of women worked in Z. Then I can just like go through that list really quick and I can try to figure out what they worked in.
Wow. That's, that's pretty cool. I mean, it just goes to show what a wide range of really cool skills you can get if you master some of those memorization techniques.
I don't know the average age of your audience, but what's really cool is that the sooner you learn these things, the sooner you can get some really cool results.
So I'm 28 now. And I started applying these techniques really seriously when I was about 15. So I have about 13 years of just like memorizing accents trivia, stem words in languages, program. And the thing is, is that it compounds really, really quickly, right? So like this afternoon, after you listened to this episode, you can immediately start memorizing things about people, right? Like your listeners, the episode ends, they take out their headphones, they talk to someone, they can start anchoring those images to their body. Like we discussed. Now, if you talk to two people at day, every year, then that's, you know, about 750 people that you're memorizing or a bunch of facts and the things is that it adds up very, very quickly.
And it doesn't take long for you to seem almost magical. And how much you know about somebody.
That's really cool. And yeah, you mentioned like, if people want to get in touch, like either with you are with maybe some of this memory athlete community, what would be some ways for them to get in touch?
So the best forum in this world or it was when I was active is the art of memory forum and the URL for that is And you can throw that in the show notes. What I'll do for your audience is I'll also create a beginner's guide to mastering social memory course. It'll just be a three or four email email course, totally for free. And, I'll give you the link so you can put that in the show notes.
That's awesome. That's awesome. So, yeah. Thanks a lot, Brian. And also, one more question I asked actually always is who would you like to see next on the podcast?
Oh, who would I like to see it next? So there is an individual named Robbie Crabtree. He was a trial attorney who now teaches persuasive public speaking. So we have kind of emailed back and forth a few times. We've spoken on Twitter a few times because we have a lot of common interests because a lot of people don't realize this, but, do you know the phrase in the first place when you're making an argument?
So that comes from memory palaces. So like Roman lawyers who were arguing a case in court would stand in a courtroom and they would go through their argument one by one by going through their memory palace. So like in the first place, my client couldn't have done this because they were in Italy at the time.
So what's really cool is how much of public speaking actually comes from memorizing.
Right. That's so cool. Yeah. And I actually like Robbie Crabtree, he was suggested by it by a previous guest on a podcast as well. But that wasn't, that was one in terms of course creation. So I think that's really cool and that gives me another link to Robbie to actually get him on the show. So I think that I might finally be successful.
Well, I'll try to peer pressure him a little bit. Once we get off here, I'll throw a tweet and you're like, I just had so much fun on, on super learning, @ Robbie you're next. So I'll help you out.
Yeah, super cool. I'll be sure to retweet that. So. All right. So thanks a lot, Brian, for being on here and looking forward to also to your course and maybe other things that we can collaborate on with our app and with your skills, obviously.
So yeah. Can I plug one more thing really quick?
You can plug everything you want.
Cool. So I don't have a link here to share with you, but as soon as I do, I'll send it your way and hopefully you can put it in the show notes. I am currently editing the first three episodes of my own podcast, intersect radio.
So I've been appearing on a few podcasts. I've been having a ton of fun. It's a great way to talk to people. So I'm trying it myself and I would love to send you a link so that your listeners, if they want to hear more of me, they can.
Sure. Yeah. We'll, we'll be sure to include that.
Awesome. Cool thanks so much now.
Thanks a lot, Brian.

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